1 00:00:14,530 --> 00:00:11,860 on this episode of skeptic Oh Alex talks 2 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:14,540 with McGill Connor about his book voices 3 00:00:21,910 --> 00:00:17,930 of Gnosticism and his podcast a on byte 4 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:21,920 Gnostic radio isn't Gnosticism limited 5 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:24,170 in the same way Christianity's limited 6 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:25,610 by this kind of always looking in the 7 00:00:30,370 --> 00:00:27,130 rearview mirror for the next 8 00:00:33,819 --> 00:00:30,380 archeological dig to tell us who we are 9 00:00:35,590 --> 00:00:33,829 yeah certainly is but it really goes 10 00:00:39,190 --> 00:00:35,600 beyond history if there's sort of a 11 00:00:40,950 --> 00:00:39,200 binary code within man and this binary 12 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:40,960 code will always go off and you have 13 00:00:45,790 --> 00:00:43,370 orthodoxy on one side making things 14 00:00:47,590 --> 00:00:45,800 mainstream believing that the world is 15 00:00:50,740 --> 00:00:47,600 going to be fine in the world part of 16 00:00:53,050 --> 00:00:50,750 this grand history of Providence there's 17 00:00:55,030 --> 00:00:53,060 also the other switch the other side 18 00:00:57,160 --> 00:00:55,040 that's always there you know we are 19 00:00:59,290 --> 00:00:57,170 alienated we are trapped in this world 20 00:01:01,569 --> 00:00:59,300 or something wrong with this world that 21 00:01:04,329 --> 00:01:01,579 is why there are many writers and 22 00:01:06,429 --> 00:01:04,339 thinkers again like Carl Jung and others 23 00:01:08,740 --> 00:01:06,439 who for the night Hammadi library we're 24 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:08,750 getting some of the Gnostic ideas even 25 00:01:13,030 --> 00:01:10,490 with the little information out there 26 00:01:14,500 --> 00:01:13,040 this orthodoxy and Gnosticism is within 27 00:01:16,030 --> 00:01:14,510 each one of us that's why it keeps 28 00:01:31,320 --> 00:01:16,040 resurfacing in so many different 29 00:01:35,170 --> 00:01:33,610 welcome to skeptical where we explore 30 00:01:37,750 --> 00:01:35,180 controversial science with leading 31 00:01:39,910 --> 00:01:37,760 researchers thinkers and their critics 32 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:39,920 I'm your host Alex Karras and in this 33 00:01:44,230 --> 00:01:41,690 episode we're gonna talk to Miguel 34 00:01:47,890 --> 00:01:44,240 Connor for the host of a podcast that 35 00:01:50,140 --> 00:01:47,900 delves into Gnosticism now you may have 36 00:01:52,540 --> 00:01:50,150 noticed that I've interviewed several 37 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:52,550 podcast hosts over the last few months 38 00:01:57,370 --> 00:01:54,770 and the reason for that is that I think 39 00:02:00,460 --> 00:01:57,380 something special happens when somebody 40 00:02:03,730 --> 00:02:00,470 spends a few years on a narrow little 41 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:03,740 topic interviewing all the experts 42 00:02:09,310 --> 00:02:06,290 related to that topic so I'm always 43 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:09,320 drawn to these hosts like Miguel who've 44 00:02:14,050 --> 00:02:11,690 explored other areas that are somewhat 45 00:02:16,390 --> 00:02:14,060 tangential to the topics that I've 46 00:02:19,150 --> 00:02:16,400 meandered into I've really enjoyed 47 00:02:21,610 --> 00:02:19,160 listening to Miguel Conners podcast I've 48 00:02:24,130 --> 00:02:21,620 learned a lot from some of the excellent 49 00:02:26,020 --> 00:02:24,140 guests that he's had on so I thought it 50 00:02:28,210 --> 00:02:26,030 would be a great opportunity to invite 51 00:02:31,150 --> 00:02:28,220 him on skeptic Oh and see if we could 52 00:02:34,260 --> 00:02:31,160 explore this strange world of Gnosticism 53 00:02:37,510 --> 00:02:34,270 here's my dialogue with miguel connor 54 00:02:40,750 --> 00:02:37,520 today we welcome miguel connor - skeptic 55 00:02:43,290 --> 00:02:40,760 oh as host of a on byte gnostic radio 56 00:02:46,900 --> 00:02:43,300 and author of the critically acclaimed 57 00:02:49,990 --> 00:02:46,910 voices of Gnosticism miguel is one of 58 00:02:52,390 --> 00:02:50,000 the leading voices of this Gnostic 59 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:52,400 movement that we seem to keep hearing so 60 00:02:55,270 --> 00:02:52,970 much about 61 00:02:57,250 --> 00:02:55,280 and I also should mention that Miguel is 62 00:02:59,830 --> 00:02:57,260 also an accomplished fiction writer 63 00:03:01,870 --> 00:02:59,840 having penned several popular post 64 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:01,880 apocalyptic but that's a hard one to 65 00:03:08,860 --> 00:03:06,890 spit out but he's got some really cool 66 00:03:10,479 --> 00:03:08,870 vampire novels that have really caught 67 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:10,489 the attention of a lot of people so 68 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:13,130 Miguel it's great to welcome you to 69 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:16,130 skeptic oh you're Alex thank you for 70 00:03:20,050 --> 00:03:18,170 having you on you know and I should 71 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:20,060 mention we tried to do this a week ago 72 00:03:23,890 --> 00:03:22,850 and we ran into some Skype trouble so 73 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:23,900 we're gonna do it again 74 00:03:29,740 --> 00:03:26,450 and in that intervening week I've dug 75 00:03:32,590 --> 00:03:29,750 into even more of your shows and I just 76 00:03:36,130 --> 00:03:32,600 keep wanting to dig more and more you 77 00:03:39,589 --> 00:03:36,140 have such a great insight into the 78 00:03:44,030 --> 00:03:39,599 fascinating area of knowledge that is 79 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:44,040 NOS this is emanuel culture and modern 80 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:46,410 contemporary issues in such an 81 00:03:51,259 --> 00:03:48,450 imaginative creative and entertaining 82 00:03:54,020 --> 00:03:51,269 way that i just really wanted to get you 83 00:03:56,660 --> 00:03:54,030 on and encourage people to check out any 84 00:03:58,130 --> 00:03:56,670 on byte gnostic radio thank you very 85 00:04:01,250 --> 00:03:58,140 much I don't know if I can live up to 86 00:04:03,050 --> 00:04:01,260 that billing but I'll try oh I think you 87 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:03,060 can because I tell you what I wanted to 88 00:04:07,490 --> 00:04:05,730 do to tee this thing off was I want to 89 00:04:09,470 --> 00:04:07,500 give people a little taste for what you 90 00:04:13,490 --> 00:04:09,480 do because it's really quite unique and 91 00:04:15,860 --> 00:04:13,500 it's a very high-quality production that 92 00:04:17,719 --> 00:04:15,870 you put on on your podcast and it weaves 93 00:04:20,539 --> 00:04:17,729 together a lot of these elements I'm 94 00:04:23,540 --> 00:04:20,549 gonna play for folks an extended clip 95 00:04:26,540 --> 00:04:23,550 from one of your shows and then let's 96 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:26,550 jump in and talk about Gnosticism let's 97 00:04:34,550 --> 00:04:31,289 do it the mystery that works for you and 98 00:04:38,390 --> 00:04:34,560 only you before j hovah 99 00:04:42,170 --> 00:04:38,400 and his archons started joke and starts 100 00:04:46,159 --> 00:04:42,180 your whole internal world crying for 101 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:46,169 good this time like joseph campbell once 102 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:48,930 said there is nothing worse than 103 00:04:55,330 --> 00:04:51,930 reaching the top of the ladder only to 104 00:04:58,610 --> 00:04:55,340 find out you are on the wrong wall and 105 00:05:01,219 --> 00:04:58,620 often we trust the snakes rather than 106 00:05:04,010 --> 00:05:01,229 the ladders in this game of corporate 107 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:04,020 and establishment Thrones 108 00:05:09,770 --> 00:05:06,690 what would you do if you were stuck in 109 00:05:13,700 --> 00:05:09,780 one place and every day was exactly the 110 00:05:14,659 --> 00:05:13,710 same and nothing he did mattered it sums 111 00:05:18,110 --> 00:05:14,669 it up for me 112 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:18,120 it's not an easy task finding out who 113 00:05:23,089 --> 00:05:20,490 you are in the mystery that works for 114 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:23,099 you but you're in good company with all 115 00:05:30,129 --> 00:05:26,490 the heretics here at am bite Gnostic Way 116 00:05:32,779 --> 00:05:30,139 do after all you spent most of your 117 00:05:35,990 --> 00:05:32,789 existences throughout creation as 118 00:05:38,870 --> 00:05:36,000 someone other than you an organic 119 00:05:42,950 --> 00:05:38,880 machine or an dead vessel for the 120 00:05:46,159 --> 00:05:42,960 vagaries of hating angels like Oscar 121 00:05:48,469 --> 00:05:46,169 Wilde said most people are other people 122 00:05:52,070 --> 00:05:48,479 their thoughts are someone else's 123 00:05:55,909 --> 00:05:52,080 opinions their lives of mimicry their 124 00:05:58,490 --> 00:05:55,919 passions a quotation so it's time to 125 00:06:01,550 --> 00:05:58,500 find out even though most of what you 126 00:06:04,129 --> 00:06:01,560 are is nothing phantom and digital 127 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:04,139 numbers in the black screen of mere 128 00:06:10,610 --> 00:06:07,530 being but with that tiny fragment of 129 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:10,620 divinity within you that is larger than 130 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:13,289 any binary universe and brighter than 131 00:06:19,670 --> 00:06:17,130 any cosmic architects dream you know 132 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:19,680 what crazy is crazy majority rules yeah 133 00:06:25,730 --> 00:06:23,610 I know I am we're certainly about 134 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:25,740 gaining all of this through learning 135 00:06:33,589 --> 00:06:30,090 about nasty so Miguel now that we've all 136 00:06:37,219 --> 00:06:33,599 been introduced to a 'invite we can step 137 00:06:38,689 --> 00:06:37,229 back and talk about what is Gnosticism 138 00:06:40,730 --> 00:06:38,699 and but what I thought I'd share and get 139 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:40,740 you to comment on as a way of kicking us 140 00:06:47,330 --> 00:06:43,289 off here is the Wikipedia definition of 141 00:06:50,779 --> 00:06:47,340 Gnosticism and it says Gnosticism is the 142 00:06:53,719 --> 00:06:50,789 dualistic belief that the material world 143 00:06:56,540 --> 00:06:53,729 should be shunned and the spiritual 144 00:06:58,430 --> 00:06:56,550 world should be embraced and it goes on 145 00:07:01,159 --> 00:06:58,440 to say gnostic ideas influenced many 146 00:07:05,180 --> 00:07:01,169 ancient religions and it also says that 147 00:07:08,269 --> 00:07:05,190 it advocates philanthropy sexual 148 00:07:10,129 --> 00:07:08,279 abstinence maybe even and it also of 149 00:07:14,050 --> 00:07:10,139 course tells us that it's often 150 00:07:17,990 --> 00:07:14,060 associated with early Christianity so 151 00:07:21,110 --> 00:07:18,000 unusual wiki fashion they've probably 152 00:07:23,540 --> 00:07:21,120 left it out or maybe totally lost it but 153 00:07:25,190 --> 00:07:23,550 tell us how close that definition is and 154 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:25,200 what are some of the points that it's 155 00:07:30,890 --> 00:07:28,290 hitting that are important to this thing 156 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:30,900 we're calling Gnosticism well I think 157 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:33,450 it's a good working definition obviously 158 00:07:37,490 --> 00:07:35,490 if you were to find anything Christian 159 00:07:39,860 --> 00:07:37,500 any Buddhism and you throw in a few 160 00:07:41,540 --> 00:07:39,870 sincere in there it would work but 161 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:41,550 ultimately it's just the beginning of 162 00:07:47,630 --> 00:07:44,850 the journey I like to see Gnosticism is 163 00:07:50,380 --> 00:07:47,640 more of an attitude which basically 164 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:50,390 centers around gnosis that sort of 165 00:07:57,080 --> 00:07:54,090 insight into the other realms into the 166 00:08:00,620 --> 00:07:57,090 divine realm or hellish realm as well as 167 00:08:03,350 --> 00:08:00,630 an inner voyage into yourself and it's 168 00:08:05,570 --> 00:08:03,360 not so much it's all about the truth but 169 00:08:08,540 --> 00:08:05,580 it's also breaking away all the 170 00:08:10,250 --> 00:08:08,550 falsehoods of existence around you and 171 00:08:11,420 --> 00:08:10,260 the Gnostics would posit that these 172 00:08:14,300 --> 00:08:11,430 existences 173 00:08:16,580 --> 00:08:14,310 but most of reality and unreality is 174 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:16,590 really fake and false and there are 175 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:19,530 grains or divine sparks ultimate truth 176 00:08:24,860 --> 00:08:22,290 that are out there and it is our job to 177 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:24,870 sort of gather these sparks as the the 178 00:08:30,890 --> 00:08:27,330 Kabbalist we call it the tikkun olam and 179 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:30,900 certainly sparks to do a unification or 180 00:08:35,950 --> 00:08:33,930 a higher plane of existence I'm so 181 00:08:37,909 --> 00:08:35,960 getting metaphysical but you can 182 00:08:40,430 --> 00:08:37,919 translate this sort of Gnostic 183 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:40,440 sensibility to literature where it's 184 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:42,930 Herman Melville or art in the movie The 185 00:08:48,590 --> 00:08:45,930 Matrix or you can get philosophical as 186 00:08:50,810 --> 00:08:48,600 Al Huxley might or Carl Ewing in a 187 00:08:52,850 --> 00:08:50,820 psychological cent and you can apply 188 00:08:56,990 --> 00:08:52,860 this sort of Gnostic sensibility to 189 00:08:59,360 --> 00:08:57,000 various facets or fields and it really 190 00:09:01,940 --> 00:08:59,370 to me it's just very exciting idea of 191 00:09:04,190 --> 00:09:01,950 Knossos any information that liberates 192 00:09:07,130 --> 00:09:04,200 you that liberates your spirit or 193 00:09:09,020 --> 00:09:07,140 expands your consciousness and that's 194 00:09:10,940 --> 00:09:09,030 what people propose that Gnostics even 195 00:09:12,230 --> 00:09:10,950 though they distrusted reality I don't 196 00:09:14,750 --> 00:09:12,240 like the hated the world but they 197 00:09:15,470 --> 00:09:14,760 certainly were full of skepticism for 198 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:15,480 the world 199 00:09:19,430 --> 00:09:17,610 and how are you gonna find a way to 200 00:09:22,100 --> 00:09:19,440 liberate yourself from it if some 201 00:09:24,470 --> 00:09:22,110 believe yes aesthetically or you've got 202 00:09:25,820 --> 00:09:24,480 to sort of deny the world and if we are 203 00:09:28,010 --> 00:09:25,830 to believe some of the church father 204 00:09:31,260 --> 00:09:28,020 there was some to believe you had to get 205 00:09:33,780 --> 00:09:31,270 sick of the world through libertine rich 206 00:09:36,450 --> 00:09:33,790 Jools although we'd know for sure how 207 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:36,460 much how credible bizarre so in a sense 208 00:09:40,350 --> 00:09:38,410 that is Gnosticism and in fact I'd like 209 00:09:42,210 --> 00:09:40,360 to if you don't mind eat you what 210 00:09:44,910 --> 00:09:42,220 somebody a friend of mine wrote what I 211 00:09:47,580 --> 00:09:44,920 think he hit it on the nail which is 212 00:09:50,010 --> 00:09:47,590 this some conceive of Gnosticism as an 213 00:09:51,570 --> 00:09:50,020 aesthetic and dualistic mysticism was a 214 00:09:53,580 --> 00:09:51,580 message of a liberation from the 215 00:09:55,590 --> 00:09:53,590 President or Elmo suffered some 216 00:09:58,230 --> 00:09:55,600 conceived of narcissism as a motive 217 00:10:00,140 --> 00:09:58,240 occult investigation and transformation 218 00:10:03,090 --> 00:10:00,150 of which sexual magic is a key component 219 00:10:05,370 --> 00:10:03,100 some conceive of Gnosticism as a penny 220 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:05,380 theistic world embracing tradition with 221 00:10:10,020 --> 00:10:07,930 roots and nature receiving paganism some 222 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:10,030 conceive of Gnosticism as a practical 223 00:10:15,150 --> 00:10:12,370 expression of union psychology constant 224 00:10:17,340 --> 00:10:15,160 to which theologies extraneous some 225 00:10:19,380 --> 00:10:17,350 conceived of Gnosticism the worldview 226 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:19,390 rooted in the experience of alienation 227 00:10:24,180 --> 00:10:21,370 with a modern parallel and 228 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:24,190 existentialism some take a combination 229 00:10:28,560 --> 00:10:26,410 of these paradigms and others beyond 230 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:28,570 those that are listed and i would say 231 00:10:34,220 --> 00:10:31,170 that the personal s is probably a good 232 00:10:36,810 --> 00:10:34,230 again foundation because after all 233 00:10:39,330 --> 00:10:36,820 gnosis begins like in the matrix with 234 00:10:42,210 --> 00:10:39,340 taking that red pill waking up and 235 00:10:43,950 --> 00:10:42,220 realizing oh my god there is something 236 00:10:46,560 --> 00:10:43,960 greater inside of me there could ever 237 00:10:49,410 --> 00:10:46,570 spot but also i'm living in the middle 238 00:10:52,590 --> 00:10:49,420 of a false reality a construct whether 239 00:10:55,590 --> 00:10:52,600 it's by government god's people or my 240 00:10:57,480 --> 00:10:55,600 own ego and i have to get out of this 241 00:11:01,020 --> 00:10:57,490 another good gnostic film would be the 242 00:11:03,630 --> 00:11:01,030 truman show that I think sums up so many 243 00:11:06,870 --> 00:11:03,640 of the both enticing aspects of 244 00:11:09,060 --> 00:11:06,880 Gnosticism and the challenging aspects 245 00:11:10,590 --> 00:11:09,070 of it as well because let's throw in a 246 00:11:12,690 --> 00:11:10,600 couple other terms and ask for a 247 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:12,700 definition of that we have this term 248 00:11:17,910 --> 00:11:15,490 that pops up a lot called the gnostic 249 00:11:19,350 --> 00:11:17,920 gospels and people always use air quotes 250 00:11:23,220 --> 00:11:19,360 when they talk about the gnostic gospels 251 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:23,230 but in real simple terms so people have 252 00:11:27,750 --> 00:11:25,930 a grounding on this what are we talking 253 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:27,760 about when we talk about the gnostic 254 00:11:31,980 --> 00:11:29,770 gospels yes 255 00:11:36,390 --> 00:11:31,990 traditionally alex enough the gospels 256 00:11:38,670 --> 00:11:36,400 are the texts found in the naga hamadi 257 00:11:39,930 --> 00:11:38,680 libraries not all of them because Anaka 258 00:11:42,150 --> 00:11:39,940 model i was really kind of a 259 00:11:44,879 --> 00:11:42,160 greatest-hits it's got to is Christian 260 00:11:48,179 --> 00:11:44,889 pagan and so hermetic 261 00:11:50,519 --> 00:11:48,189 these are these writings found in the 262 00:11:52,979 --> 00:11:50,529 NAG Hammadi library and outside a bit 263 00:11:55,169 --> 00:11:52,989 like the pista sofia probably include 264 00:11:57,269 --> 00:11:55,179 the hermetic writings some of the 265 00:11:59,910 --> 00:11:57,279 kabbalah writing but these of course 266 00:12:03,780 --> 00:11:59,920 posit and are couched in a sort of a 267 00:12:06,629 --> 00:12:03,790 judoka judeo-christian world and in this 268 00:12:10,379 --> 00:12:06,639 world we have sort of a lesser creator 269 00:12:13,349 --> 00:12:10,389 God or divine agency the traps the 270 00:12:16,829 --> 00:12:13,359 divine spark in this again the sort of 271 00:12:19,259 --> 00:12:16,839 virtual reality this illusionary hell if 272 00:12:21,299 --> 00:12:19,269 you would and through gnosis which is 273 00:12:24,629 --> 00:12:21,309 usually brought by a hero fans of 274 00:12:27,989 --> 00:12:24,639 mysteries could be Jesus Christ her 275 00:12:30,749 --> 00:12:27,999 mistress Miguel's Simon Magus and so 276 00:12:33,269 --> 00:12:30,759 forth Mary Magdalene we can transform 277 00:12:35,849 --> 00:12:33,279 ourselves or wake up and find our 278 00:12:37,710 --> 00:12:35,859 journey back to our ancestral home so 279 00:12:39,900 --> 00:12:37,720 this is these are sort of the qualities 280 00:12:42,090 --> 00:12:39,910 you'll find in the Gnostic Gospels with 281 00:12:44,099 --> 00:12:42,100 having said that I could say the for 282 00:12:47,220 --> 00:12:44,109 example Philip K takes valise is a 283 00:12:49,710 --> 00:12:47,230 gnostic gospel or a Herman Melville's 284 00:12:52,199 --> 00:12:49,720 moby-dick is a Gnostic gospel even says 285 00:12:54,929 --> 00:12:52,209 you know the matrix or the 13th floor is 286 00:12:57,659 --> 00:12:54,939 a Gnostic gospel you know but I'm again 287 00:13:00,449 --> 00:12:57,669 I'm kind of extending this into other 288 00:13:02,729 --> 00:13:00,459 field like literary philosophical and so 289 00:13:03,929 --> 00:13:02,739 forth I'm there you go again again we're 290 00:13:06,319 --> 00:13:03,939 gonna have to keep pinning you down 291 00:13:09,179 --> 00:13:06,329 that's wonderful and I think it's 292 00:13:11,489 --> 00:13:09,189 wonderful in a brain shifting kind of 293 00:13:15,049 --> 00:13:11,499 way that that connects us with these 294 00:13:17,460 --> 00:13:15,059 very ancient texts and makes them more 295 00:13:19,439 --> 00:13:17,470 relevant to what we're doing but I do 296 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:19,449 want to try and pin down that history a 297 00:13:23,789 --> 00:13:21,730 little bit so we can just again ground 298 00:13:27,090 --> 00:13:23,799 people so this is the mid 20th century 299 00:13:29,549 --> 00:13:27,100 it's into the 1950s that the NAG Hammadi 300 00:13:31,710 --> 00:13:29,559 library is discovered a lot of the stuff 301 00:13:35,479 --> 00:13:31,720 yes and then yeah the Gnostic gospel 302 00:13:39,269 --> 00:13:35,489 would specifically be second century 303 00:13:41,729 --> 00:13:39,279 Christian heresies that again 304 00:13:44,009 --> 00:13:41,739 talk about a Demiurge inner 305 00:13:47,729 --> 00:13:44,019 transformation of the cell possible 306 00:13:51,090 --> 00:13:47,739 reincarnation again Jesus Christ as one 307 00:13:53,369 --> 00:13:51,100 of the leading figures and from those 308 00:13:54,900 --> 00:13:53,379 texts which were written by some 309 00:13:57,850 --> 00:13:54,910 believed these cool of thoughts called 310 00:13:59,980 --> 00:13:57,860 the seconds or the valent in Ian's 311 00:14:02,829 --> 00:13:59,990 through the canines and Oh bite the 312 00:14:05,050 --> 00:14:02,839 serpent worshipers see them from there 313 00:14:07,750 --> 00:14:05,060 you can start working your way out but 314 00:14:10,210 --> 00:14:07,760 if you in a scholarly way gnostic 315 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:10,220 gospels or even the Gnostics would be 316 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:13,130 these centuries second century groups in 317 00:14:17,410 --> 00:14:14,930 fact many scholars today don't even use 318 00:14:20,710 --> 00:14:17,420 the term Gnosticism curse after all it 319 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:20,720 was coined in the seventh century by an 320 00:14:26,230 --> 00:14:23,690 orthodox theologian and it was it was 321 00:14:28,900 --> 00:14:26,240 originally a political term they kind of 322 00:14:31,780 --> 00:14:28,910 got expand it like paganism it ruined 323 00:14:33,970 --> 00:14:31,790 anything people didn't like no I would 324 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:33,980 start there and then work your way out 325 00:14:44,170 --> 00:14:40,370 so 1950s we discover all these very 1945 326 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:44,180 yet I'm sorry great nineteen more that 327 00:14:48,100 --> 00:14:46,130 there were some text like the pista 328 00:14:49,990 --> 00:14:48,110 Sophia the gospel of Mary Magdalene 329 00:14:53,170 --> 00:14:50,000 floating around but okay 330 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:53,180 great and these are heretical in the 331 00:14:57,699 --> 00:14:55,250 very true definition of the word 332 00:15:00,100 --> 00:14:57,709 heretical to Christianity as it's 333 00:15:02,949 --> 00:15:00,110 another problem yet though term 334 00:15:05,199 --> 00:15:02,959 heretical originally wasn't as negative 335 00:15:07,030 --> 00:15:05,209 as we know today I like Irenaeus and 336 00:15:10,030 --> 00:15:07,040 some of the Church Fathers the term 337 00:15:12,730 --> 00:15:10,040 heretical first really meant a school of 338 00:15:14,650 --> 00:15:12,740 thought like Josephus that I'm a heretic 339 00:15:16,900 --> 00:15:14,660 of the doctors he was a school of 340 00:15:18,460 --> 00:15:16,910 thought of the doctors then the term 341 00:15:21,790 --> 00:15:18,470 which comes from the Greek for to make a 342 00:15:23,650 --> 00:15:21,800 choice became in the second and third 343 00:15:26,050 --> 00:15:23,660 century simply a term for those 344 00:15:28,810 --> 00:15:26,060 Christians who had made a choice beyond 345 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:28,820 the norm they're on the fringe and then 346 00:15:33,430 --> 00:15:30,290 it just gets worse and worse 347 00:15:36,819 --> 00:15:33,440 mmm-hmm but they are heretical yes okay 348 00:15:39,759 --> 00:15:36,829 so when the 1940s rolls around and we 349 00:15:43,060 --> 00:15:39,769 discover these texts that are very very 350 00:15:44,290 --> 00:15:43,070 much in conflict with really they cannot 351 00:15:46,389 --> 00:15:44,300 say neither right they're in direct 352 00:15:48,490 --> 00:15:46,399 conflict with the way the 353 00:15:49,930 --> 00:15:48,500 judeo-christian tradition has been 354 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:49,940 westernized and the way that it's 355 00:15:56,800 --> 00:15:52,610 practiced so this starts developing 356 00:15:59,470 --> 00:15:56,810 would you say this spark among certain 357 00:16:01,889 --> 00:15:59,480 people to say wow maybe even in our 358 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:01,899 Western tradition we can find this 359 00:16:06,630 --> 00:16:04,370 something that is we normally have 360 00:16:08,889 --> 00:16:06,640 thought of as more Eastern in its 361 00:16:10,449 --> 00:16:08,899 philosophical outlook let me just stop 362 00:16:11,590 --> 00:16:10,459 right there because I may have said 363 00:16:14,559 --> 00:16:11,600 something else that isn't 364 00:16:17,650 --> 00:16:14,569 correct what are the ties between this 365 00:16:20,610 --> 00:16:17,660 early Christian Gnosticism and some of 366 00:16:23,139 --> 00:16:20,620 the Eastern traditions well the tires 367 00:16:25,180 --> 00:16:23,149 probably have always been there I mean 368 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:25,190 we do know that there's always been from 369 00:16:29,410 --> 00:16:27,410 the Silk Road a trade of eastern and 370 00:16:31,660 --> 00:16:29,420 western traditions even but you know 371 00:16:34,420 --> 00:16:31,670 before the gnostics before christianity 372 00:16:37,660 --> 00:16:34,430 uh there was a there was a buddhist 373 00:16:39,430 --> 00:16:37,670 priests or amongst and alexandria before 374 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:39,440 the first century going there there were 375 00:16:43,660 --> 00:16:41,690 there were romans going there for spices 376 00:16:45,519 --> 00:16:43,670 so these ideas were back and forth I 377 00:16:47,199 --> 00:16:45,529 mean you look at something like a big 378 00:16:49,990 --> 00:16:47,209 influence on the Gnostic would be the 379 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:50,000 the cult of Orpheus that believed in 380 00:16:55,660 --> 00:16:52,970 reincarnation and a divine spark the 381 00:16:57,730 --> 00:16:55,670 cult of Pythagoras so this thing was in 382 00:17:00,400 --> 00:16:57,740 the air in fact some scholars have said 383 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:00,410 hey it's very possible that the Syrian 384 00:17:04,029 --> 00:17:01,970 mystics and the Gnostics actually 385 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:04,039 influenced the East some of the later 386 00:17:10,390 --> 00:17:06,770 traditions of Hinduism and some of the 387 00:17:12,159 --> 00:17:10,400 ideas of Buddhism so the relation in the 388 00:17:14,140 --> 00:17:12,169 more primordial manner and I must say 389 00:17:16,029 --> 00:17:14,150 that when the Gnostics were around the 390 00:17:17,710 --> 00:17:16,039 other Christians around them shared a 391 00:17:20,140 --> 00:17:17,720 lot of these ideas it wasn't anything 392 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:20,150 heretical this is sort of later when you 393 00:17:24,490 --> 00:17:21,770 have to sort of make this religion 394 00:17:26,919 --> 00:17:24,500 mainstream and marketable but again this 395 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:26,929 idea that we have an inner God within us 396 00:17:30,690 --> 00:17:28,850 each one of us that we can access 397 00:17:33,090 --> 00:17:30,700 through the right rituals or 398 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:33,100 contemplation they're gonna of 399 00:17:38,049 --> 00:17:36,530 reincarnation the idea of of insight 400 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:38,059 into the world and how the world is 401 00:17:42,610 --> 00:17:40,010 simply an illusion that we have to break 402 00:17:44,500 --> 00:17:42,620 through these were shared again by the 403 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:44,510 Gnostics and the Easterners and even 404 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:46,490 many of the Christian and Jews it was it 405 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:48,650 was not heretical or even controversial 406 00:17:51,549 --> 00:17:50,570 at the time I mean it was in the air 407 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:51,559 across the world 408 00:17:56,260 --> 00:17:53,690 yeah and that again gets to one of the 409 00:17:59,200 --> 00:17:56,270 problems with Gnosticism as we try and 410 00:18:02,520 --> 00:17:59,210 define it because as you just described 411 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:02,530 to a certain extent it's defined by the 412 00:18:08,169 --> 00:18:05,330 religious structures that it kind of 413 00:18:10,110 --> 00:18:08,179 undermines I mean Gnosticism is to a 414 00:18:12,610 --> 00:18:10,120 certain extent defined by the 415 00:18:15,039 --> 00:18:12,620 judeo-christian tradition when in fact 416 00:18:17,169 --> 00:18:15,049 the history of Gnosticism suggests that 417 00:18:19,299 --> 00:18:17,179 the judeo-christian tradition isn't what 418 00:18:21,100 --> 00:18:19,309 we have come to believe that it is right 419 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:21,110 I mean isn't there kind of a paradox 420 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:24,890 there yeah yeah I mean as scholars at 421 00:18:28,070 --> 00:18:25,410 settings 422 00:18:30,260 --> 00:18:28,080 Elaine Pagels and so forth there was no 423 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:30,270 original Christianity in the first 424 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:32,970 second or in the third century it was 425 00:18:37,610 --> 00:18:35,730 all just this giant speculation of ideas 426 00:18:40,130 --> 00:18:37,620 and different little schools of thought 427 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:40,140 that you know congregated here and there 428 00:18:44,780 --> 00:18:42,330 and exchange information with the pagans 429 00:18:46,700 --> 00:18:44,790 and the Jews in Alexandria and so forth 430 00:18:48,590 --> 00:18:46,710 there was enough nothing ever said I 431 00:18:51,710 --> 00:18:48,600 mean for example one of the great 432 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:51,720 Orthodox fathers clement of alexandria 433 00:18:56,540 --> 00:18:53,850 said the only true christian is a 434 00:18:58,940 --> 00:18:56,550 gnostic one who knows when when gnosis 435 00:19:01,820 --> 00:18:58,950 other church fathers yes at what there 436 00:19:05,180 --> 00:19:01,830 is a demiurges world is divided by these 437 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:05,190 sort of demons or archons as they call 438 00:19:10,870 --> 00:19:07,650 them so yes you can easily say that 439 00:19:13,850 --> 00:19:10,880 there was never a sort of this sort of a 440 00:19:15,890 --> 00:19:13,860 formalized organized christianity that 441 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:15,900 went out with the Apostles and so forth 442 00:19:21,710 --> 00:19:17,970 it was it was it was a very speculative 443 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:21,720 and MIT and you know a imaginative time 444 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:23,490 those early days of Christians and the 445 00:19:27,860 --> 00:19:25,410 Gnostics were part of that group and 446 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:27,870 then following that path forward that 447 00:19:33,230 --> 00:19:30,330 Gnostic path forward how do we 448 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:33,240 differentiate that from modern ideas of 449 00:19:38,900 --> 00:19:36,930 enlightenment or awakening well the main 450 00:19:42,290 --> 00:19:38,910 difference again is that our world is 451 00:19:43,850 --> 00:19:42,300 created by lesser agencies or even evil 452 00:19:46,130 --> 00:19:43,860 agencies which you really don't find 453 00:19:49,330 --> 00:19:46,140 anywhere in fact some Gnostic said says 454 00:19:52,700 --> 00:19:49,340 that we as humans were simply sort of 455 00:19:56,210 --> 00:19:52,710 fleshy cases in which the divine spark 456 00:19:59,210 --> 00:19:56,220 was hidden from the true God or the 457 00:20:02,810 --> 00:19:59,220 higher forces like Sophia so that right 458 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:02,820 there is pretty much unique and then the 459 00:20:07,100 --> 00:20:05,250 idea of gnosis is I mean all traditions 460 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:07,110 have you know we'd like to say well I 461 00:20:11,150 --> 00:20:09,690 can know God or I can experience God and 462 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:11,160 have a mystic thing and of course that's 463 00:20:14,810 --> 00:20:11,730 great 464 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:14,820 through the Gnostics it was more of a an 465 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:18,930 into it was an intellectual exercise but 466 00:20:24,350 --> 00:20:21,450 also spiritual exercise and it was a 467 00:20:26,660 --> 00:20:24,360 very in-depth going into the various 468 00:20:29,510 --> 00:20:26,670 levels of who you were as a human to 469 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:29,520 find this divine spark even Karl Yune 470 00:20:33,830 --> 00:20:32,250 said the Gnostics were the original dead 471 00:20:36,190 --> 00:20:33,840 psychologists because they went deeper 472 00:20:38,660 --> 00:20:36,200 than pretty much any of the Greeks or 473 00:20:39,590 --> 00:20:38,670 philosophers out there and then it was 474 00:20:42,230 --> 00:20:39,600 an out 475 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:42,240 right into the different planes of 476 00:20:48,470 --> 00:20:45,450 reality or consciousness which you don't 477 00:20:50,750 --> 00:20:48,480 find as you don't find in any size or 478 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:50,760 depth as you do with the gnostics so 479 00:20:55,360 --> 00:20:52,050 that right there you're getting into 480 00:20:57,590 --> 00:20:55,370 sort of some very unique unique 481 00:21:00,020 --> 00:20:57,600 characteristics but of course as you 482 00:21:02,420 --> 00:21:00,030 said no religion exists in a vacuum 483 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:02,430 every religion exists in a state of high 484 00:21:08,150 --> 00:21:05,970 privity where they borrow take and you 485 00:21:10,190 --> 00:21:08,160 know and interact with other religions 486 00:21:12,460 --> 00:21:10,200 until they all overlapped and they'll 487 00:21:14,930 --> 00:21:12,470 continue to overlap even to this day 488 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:14,940 interesting another thing I want to get 489 00:21:19,430 --> 00:21:16,650 out there because you just touched on 490 00:21:23,660 --> 00:21:19,440 and again and that's this reference to 491 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:23,670 the dark side to the occult to evil in 492 00:21:27,980 --> 00:21:26,010 its different forms as we think about it 493 00:21:30,890 --> 00:21:27,990 and I think there's an association that 494 00:21:33,950 --> 00:21:30,900 a lot of folks have between Gnosticism 495 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:33,960 and the occult and dark forces dark 496 00:21:39,050 --> 00:21:35,730 elements I think you've done a nice job 497 00:21:42,290 --> 00:21:39,060 already of showing us how those 498 00:21:44,120 --> 00:21:42,300 distinctions might not be exactly what 499 00:21:46,850 --> 00:21:44,130 we've been conditioned to think they are 500 00:21:51,260 --> 00:21:46,860 but can you maybe touch on that some 501 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:51,270 more yeah I'm part of the gnosis and of 502 00:21:56,870 --> 00:21:53,610 course this is why Gnosticism or the 503 00:21:59,540 --> 00:21:56,880 Gnostics have always been so endearing 504 00:22:01,600 --> 00:21:59,550 to so many artists throughout history we 505 00:22:04,940 --> 00:22:01,610 can go through a william blake and 506 00:22:07,250 --> 00:22:04,950 philip k dick and a whole slew of others 507 00:22:09,590 --> 00:22:07,260 you almost gonna hit that Gnostic 508 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:09,600 sensibility because it does begin by 509 00:22:14,300 --> 00:22:11,850 taking the red pill and well before you 510 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:14,310 take the red pill and you you do feel an 511 00:22:17,750 --> 00:22:15,930 alienation you know you know like 512 00:22:19,310 --> 00:22:17,760 Morpheus said there's something wrong in 513 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:19,320 the world but you don't know what it is 514 00:22:24,470 --> 00:22:20,970 and it's like a splinter in your mind 515 00:22:26,270 --> 00:22:24,480 driving you mad you feel alienated like 516 00:22:28,340 --> 00:22:26,280 something is wrong and I think more and 517 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:28,350 more people in this society with the 518 00:22:32,390 --> 00:22:29,850 media and everything that's going on 519 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:32,400 probably feel that way and they did in 520 00:22:38,360 --> 00:22:34,530 Roman times and it starts with that 521 00:22:41,180 --> 00:22:38,370 alienation and that search for the truth 522 00:22:42,890 --> 00:22:41,190 for reality and as you find you seek 523 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:42,900 that reality to take the writ till you 524 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:44,970 realize that everything that you were 525 00:22:49,220 --> 00:22:47,490 taught or you believe that's probably 526 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:49,230 wrong and everything that you are is 527 00:22:53,300 --> 00:22:51,810 really a construct a construct a fate of 528 00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:53,310 society of 529 00:22:58,640 --> 00:22:56,250 dark shadowy forces you know the man in 530 00:23:01,160 --> 00:22:58,650 the man behind the curtain but at the 531 00:23:03,380 --> 00:23:01,170 same time there's this beauty you see 532 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:03,390 this again you see how the universe is 533 00:23:07,190 --> 00:23:05,610 really there's this light hidden all the 534 00:23:09,820 --> 00:23:07,200 universe and beyond that there's what 535 00:23:13,790 --> 00:23:09,830 they call the call of Sofia there is an 536 00:23:16,430 --> 00:23:13,800 enough six column the alien God which is 537 00:23:18,710 --> 00:23:16,440 this force beyond our forces it calls 538 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:18,720 you to it but of course you have to do 539 00:23:25,430 --> 00:23:21,450 the work and meet this meet these beings 540 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:25,440 halfway so in so in that way that's why 541 00:23:30,020 --> 00:23:27,810 maybe you're not just artists but a 542 00:23:32,150 --> 00:23:30,030 cultist feel so I've felt so drawn to 543 00:23:33,710 --> 00:23:32,160 Gnosticism because it again it's that 544 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:33,720 sense of alienation that sort of 545 00:23:40,430 --> 00:23:36,330 skepticism to the world that artistic 546 00:23:41,990 --> 00:23:40,440 impulse impulse to to go out and find 547 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:42,000 something that's better than what than 548 00:23:46,820 --> 00:23:45,210 what has been presented to us and and I 549 00:23:48,970 --> 00:23:46,830 mean some people call the Gnostics the 550 00:23:50,930 --> 00:23:48,980 original dekes or the original 551 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:50,940 conspiracy serious because they were 552 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:52,290 asking these questions 553 00:23:56,180 --> 00:23:54,330 long before everybody they were asking 554 00:23:58,490 --> 00:23:56,190 you know they thought there was a 555 00:24:01,130 --> 00:23:58,500 conspiracy in every rock and every human 556 00:24:02,810 --> 00:24:01,140 and they wanted to analyze it break down 557 00:24:05,660 --> 00:24:02,820 with it and at the same time have enough 558 00:24:08,990 --> 00:24:05,670 compassion to show others to find their 559 00:24:11,750 --> 00:24:09,000 own inner light but what about that 560 00:24:15,530 --> 00:24:11,760 connection with the dark side how do we 561 00:24:18,110 --> 00:24:15,540 dance in the shadows and is Gnosticism 562 00:24:20,660 --> 00:24:18,120 one step one foot on the banana peel 563 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:20,670 away from Satanism like a lot of people 564 00:24:26,660 --> 00:24:24,450 will tell you it is yeah well say never 565 00:24:28,340 --> 00:24:26,670 Satanism itself is again it's like 566 00:24:30,470 --> 00:24:28,350 paganism we're not in sort of an 567 00:24:32,540 --> 00:24:30,480 umbrella term you throw here in that 568 00:24:34,970 --> 00:24:32,550 there's it's a very recent term to I 569 00:24:36,620 --> 00:24:34,980 mean really if we're going to be right I 570 00:24:38,570 --> 00:24:36,630 mean people have you read history 571 00:24:41,300 --> 00:24:38,580 they've been you know strange people 572 00:24:42,740 --> 00:24:41,310 sacrifice you know make blood sacrifice 573 00:24:45,470 --> 00:24:42,750 for Sigma they're still within the 574 00:24:47,930 --> 00:24:45,480 Christian mythology as much as they're 575 00:24:54,230 --> 00:24:47,940 still in the narrative so they're just 576 00:24:56,150 --> 00:24:54,240 Christians gone wrong but with the 577 00:24:59,600 --> 00:24:56,160 Gnosticism of course the idea of gnosis 578 00:25:03,740 --> 00:24:59,610 is first the old temple you know Oracle 579 00:25:05,270 --> 00:25:03,750 of Delphi saying know thyself and to 580 00:25:07,130 --> 00:25:05,280 know thyself is not just to sit there 581 00:25:09,980 --> 00:25:07,140 and go oh I'm a beautiful 582 00:25:11,870 --> 00:25:09,990 snowflake I'm a piece of God you know no 583 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:11,880 it's knowing that you are also made of 584 00:25:15,500 --> 00:25:14,010 some very dark forces if Jesus says the 585 00:25:17,390 --> 00:25:15,510 kingdom of God is within you 586 00:25:19,940 --> 00:25:17,400 well logically the kingdom of hell is 587 00:25:22,549 --> 00:25:19,950 within you and most of what you are 588 00:25:25,970 --> 00:25:22,559 again it's probably a construct of fate 589 00:25:28,850 --> 00:25:25,980 of society of you know cosmic forces 590 00:25:30,650 --> 00:25:28,860 stars and you have to know this darkside 591 00:25:32,660 --> 00:25:30,660 X you have to know the dark side of the 592 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:32,670 world but in knowing it you will 593 00:25:36,289 --> 00:25:34,290 hopefully find the answers on how to 594 00:25:37,900 --> 00:25:36,299 break out from it but it's so again it 595 00:25:41,930 --> 00:25:37,910 really starts with knowing that she'll 596 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:41,940 so Miguel you really do a masterful job 597 00:25:48,409 --> 00:25:45,690 on and byte Gnostic radio of weaving 598 00:25:50,180 --> 00:25:48,419 these threads of Gnosticism into our 599 00:25:51,770 --> 00:25:50,190 modern culture and you've just done a 600 00:25:55,789 --> 00:25:51,780 nice job of doing it here 601 00:25:57,230 --> 00:25:55,799 I do feel also though that you're open 602 00:25:59,720 --> 00:25:57,240 as you described on the show to the 603 00:26:01,730 --> 00:25:59,730 limits of history and we understand that 604 00:26:05,120 --> 00:26:01,740 history is written by those who conquer 605 00:26:08,150 --> 00:26:05,130 and we have to wonder if the Nok Hammadi 606 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:08,160 library would even be in existence 607 00:26:14,120 --> 00:26:11,490 if Genghis Khan took one turn or another 608 00:26:15,470 --> 00:26:14,130 lion burned the the library like he 609 00:26:17,299 --> 00:26:15,480 destroyed the greatest library in the 610 00:26:20,090 --> 00:26:17,309 world and Baghdad and burned it to the 611 00:26:21,860 --> 00:26:20,100 ground me what uncharred documents are 612 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:21,870 left is what we're really basing a lot 613 00:26:27,950 --> 00:26:25,890 of this on isn't Gnosticism limited in 614 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:27,960 the same way Christianity's limited by 615 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:29,250 this kind of always looking in the 616 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:30,770 rearview mirror for the next 617 00:26:35,810 --> 00:26:33,570 archeological dig to tell us who we are 618 00:26:39,220 --> 00:26:35,820 isn't that an inherent limitation of 619 00:26:43,039 --> 00:26:39,230 this kind of historical based knowing 620 00:26:45,260 --> 00:26:43,049 yeah certainly is but it really goes 621 00:26:46,730 --> 00:26:45,270 beyond history I think the the scholar 622 00:26:48,740 --> 00:26:46,740 Yan Giuliano 623 00:26:51,799 --> 00:26:48,750 who wrote the tree of gnosis he said 624 00:26:54,650 --> 00:26:51,809 that there's also sort of a binary code 625 00:26:57,080 --> 00:26:54,660 within man and this binary code will 626 00:26:59,120 --> 00:26:57,090 always go off and you have orthodoxy on 627 00:27:01,220 --> 00:26:59,130 one side making things mainstream 628 00:27:03,140 --> 00:27:01,230 believing that the world is going to be 629 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:03,150 fine in the world part of this grand 630 00:27:08,930 --> 00:27:06,690 history Providence but as there's also 631 00:27:11,299 --> 00:27:08,940 the other switch the other side that's 632 00:27:13,130 --> 00:27:11,309 always there you know we are alienated 633 00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:13,140 we are trapped in this world or 634 00:27:16,940 --> 00:27:15,090 something wrong with this world let's 635 00:27:20,750 --> 00:27:16,950 find let's go on this inner voyage 636 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:20,760 inside and outside of us so and you know 637 00:27:24,860 --> 00:27:23,250 as he posited you could just be race the 638 00:27:27,580 --> 00:27:24,870 Bible and the not Hammadi light in every 639 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:27,590 religion and with a hundred years some 640 00:27:32,330 --> 00:27:30,210 binary code will go off and somebody 641 00:27:32,510 --> 00:27:32,340 will go I am Orthodox this is the way it 642 00:27:34,460 --> 00:27:32,520 is 643 00:27:36,050 --> 00:27:34,470 and immediately somebody down the line 644 00:27:38,060 --> 00:27:36,060 will say no there is a Gnostic 645 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:38,070 sensibility this is the way it is that 646 00:27:44,180 --> 00:27:40,650 is why there are many writers and 647 00:27:46,580 --> 00:27:44,190 thinkers again like Carl Jung and others 648 00:27:49,130 --> 00:27:46,590 who before the night Hammadi library 649 00:27:51,890 --> 00:27:49,140 we're getting some of the Gnostic ideas 650 00:27:53,270 --> 00:27:51,900 the names the concepts they were getting 651 00:27:55,370 --> 00:27:53,280 it very well even with the little 652 00:27:58,430 --> 00:27:55,380 information out there so yes we are 653 00:28:01,010 --> 00:27:58,440 limited by history but again I feel that 654 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:01,020 the sort of this orthodoxy and 655 00:28:04,820 --> 00:28:03,090 Gnosticism is within each one of us 656 00:28:06,380 --> 00:28:04,830 that's why it keeps resurfacing in so 657 00:28:08,900 --> 00:28:06,390 many different traditions whether it's 658 00:28:12,950 --> 00:28:08,910 Buddhist or Muslim and so forth it's 659 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:12,960 there excellent more evidence that it is 660 00:28:18,020 --> 00:28:15,930 truly an innate spark in us and maybe 661 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:18,030 even I'd say a divine spark as you said 662 00:28:22,490 --> 00:28:20,490 that is almost it serves as evidence 663 00:28:25,430 --> 00:28:22,500 that it that it is there and it is 664 00:28:29,420 --> 00:28:25,440 timeless fascinating let's talk for a 665 00:28:32,390 --> 00:28:29,430 minute about the other dark side is the 666 00:28:35,690 --> 00:28:32,400 atheist because you on your show are 667 00:28:37,850 --> 00:28:35,700 very charitable to the atheists and give 668 00:28:40,820 --> 00:28:37,860 great praise where it's often due to 669 00:28:44,210 --> 00:28:40,830 folks like Bart airman biblical scholar 670 00:28:48,170 --> 00:28:44,220 Robert price and others who have a view 671 00:28:52,630 --> 00:28:48,180 that I think counter to this basic idea 672 00:28:54,980 --> 00:28:52,640 of gnosis how do you see the atheistic 673 00:28:58,840 --> 00:28:54,990 materialistic worldview fitting into 674 00:29:01,190 --> 00:28:58,850 this larger picture of this divine spark 675 00:29:04,610 --> 00:29:01,200 well obviously I would be certainly 676 00:29:06,650 --> 00:29:04,620 against that I mean I do admire the 677 00:29:09,170 --> 00:29:06,660 parts of atheists or would say with the 678 00:29:10,970 --> 00:29:09,180 Gnostic hey use your reason I mean the 679 00:29:13,670 --> 00:29:10,980 Gnostics even in their text talk about 680 00:29:15,530 --> 00:29:13,680 how science and art and literature will 681 00:29:18,050 --> 00:29:15,540 free you that's part of gnosis that 682 00:29:19,970 --> 00:29:18,060 expands your consciousness I do like 683 00:29:21,830 --> 00:29:19,980 that the AC is the Gnostics and the 684 00:29:23,870 --> 00:29:21,840 Asics would share the idea of being free 685 00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:23,880 from mainstream religions and the grip 686 00:29:28,460 --> 00:29:26,370 of tyranny of governments and so forth 687 00:29:30,890 --> 00:29:28,470 but at the same time that's where we 688 00:29:33,230 --> 00:29:30,900 parked away because the Gnostics again 689 00:29:34,909 --> 00:29:33,240 it's about the divine spark and you can 690 00:29:37,970 --> 00:29:34,919 you can change device 691 00:29:40,009 --> 00:29:37,980 or Kimura modern terms consciousness a 692 00:29:42,409 --> 00:29:40,019 great mystery that not even that Sam 693 00:29:44,810 --> 00:29:42,419 Harris the Pope one of the Pope's of 694 00:29:47,029 --> 00:29:44,820 atheism says that's the one thing 695 00:29:49,580 --> 00:29:47,039 science and materialism has not figured 696 00:29:50,659 --> 00:29:49,590 out they may say well around the corner 697 00:29:52,430 --> 00:29:50,669 we're about to discover 698 00:29:54,289 --> 00:29:52,440 you know consciousness they were going 699 00:29:56,180 --> 00:29:54,299 to discover the flying car or the god 700 00:29:58,810 --> 00:29:56,190 particle but the truth is they won't 701 00:30:02,389 --> 00:29:58,820 it's a great mystery so in that sense 702 00:30:05,419 --> 00:30:02,399 the idea of consciousness and the divine 703 00:30:08,389 --> 00:30:05,429 spark and obviously atheism can be a 704 00:30:10,700 --> 00:30:08,399 little bit more hell what's the term 705 00:30:13,159 --> 00:30:10,710 well I'm gonna say materialism by a 706 00:30:16,310 --> 00:30:13,169 seasoned sort of has a positive view of 707 00:30:18,109 --> 00:30:16,320 all that is material and all that we can 708 00:30:20,210 --> 00:30:18,119 see and the Gnostic sensibility would 709 00:30:22,609 --> 00:30:20,220 certainly reject that as they know it's 710 00:30:24,529 --> 00:30:22,619 all a lie eventually ultimately it's a 711 00:30:27,859 --> 00:30:24,539 lion very little is going to be true so 712 00:30:31,369 --> 00:30:27,869 that's why they part ways well said but 713 00:30:34,789 --> 00:30:31,379 there's a great divide between atheism 714 00:30:37,070 --> 00:30:34,799 and football lump together spirituality 715 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:37,080 in its broadest term in a big big tent 716 00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:39,690 way and throw Gnosticism in there and 717 00:30:43,940 --> 00:30:41,850 all our religions in there and our 718 00:30:46,999 --> 00:30:43,950 new-age traditions in there all that 719 00:30:48,710 --> 00:30:47,009 stuff that's one big tent and the folks 720 00:30:51,259 --> 00:30:48,720 on the outside of that tent are saying 721 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:51,269 no no no no no your experience is 722 00:30:56,149 --> 00:30:54,330 nothing you are merely your brain you 723 00:31:00,259 --> 00:30:56,159 are this materialism you are this 724 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:00,269 biological robot isn't that more of a 725 00:31:05,799 --> 00:31:03,570 divide then we're kind of letting on 726 00:31:09,529 --> 00:31:05,809 when we let these people into the tent 727 00:31:12,619 --> 00:31:09,539 yeah obviously you have to go sometimes 728 00:31:14,229 --> 00:31:12,629 with the you know enemy of my enemy is 729 00:31:16,909 --> 00:31:14,239 my friend 730 00:31:19,279 --> 00:31:16,919 you know try to find some common ground 731 00:31:21,289 --> 00:31:19,289 because I would hope that most 732 00:31:22,970 --> 00:31:21,299 reasonable atheist just want to get 733 00:31:25,310 --> 00:31:22,980 along and go about their business which 734 00:31:27,859 --> 00:31:25,320 is what the ancient Gnostics tried to do 735 00:31:31,099 --> 00:31:27,869 and they've been wiped out throughout 736 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:31,109 history so then also you know ethos 737 00:31:36,139 --> 00:31:33,690 would say well we can find groups to get 738 00:31:39,049 --> 00:31:36,149 along let's do it yes they might think 739 00:31:41,749 --> 00:31:39,059 differently I mean we do agree that 99% 740 00:31:44,330 --> 00:31:41,759 of what we are it's false or organic or 741 00:31:46,580 --> 00:31:44,340 an illusion well we agree on that 742 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:46,590 maybe we can agree on the mystery of 743 00:31:52,100 --> 00:31:48,330 consciousness 744 00:31:54,590 --> 00:31:52,110 and maybe that's why New Agers get your 745 00:31:57,139 --> 00:31:54,600 ire so much do you want to maybe speak 746 00:32:00,710 --> 00:31:57,149 to what it is about the crystal crowd 747 00:32:04,850 --> 00:32:00,720 and the secret crowd that so riles you 748 00:32:06,259 --> 00:32:04,860 up often on your show oh boy yes I think 749 00:32:07,759 --> 00:32:06,269 I've found on many rents and Raley's 750 00:32:09,649 --> 00:32:07,769 right because I used to be a New Ager 751 00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:09,659 before I start this is the Gnostic 752 00:32:17,180 --> 00:32:12,570 gospel and I enjoyed it but the the 753 00:32:19,549 --> 00:32:17,190 problem I see is beyond again they fall 754 00:32:21,379 --> 00:32:19,559 into the same materialistic traps and do 755 00:32:24,830 --> 00:32:21,389 others except sometimes works because 756 00:32:28,250 --> 00:32:24,840 you get calendars and again diets and 757 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:28,260 books for everything that's new agey but 758 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:29,970 is the idea of how they confront 759 00:32:36,279 --> 00:32:32,850 suffering and this is where they fall 760 00:32:39,769 --> 00:32:36,289 short even shorter than acs Orpheus 761 00:32:43,070 --> 00:32:39,779 because somehow suffering is relegated 762 00:32:45,759 --> 00:32:43,080 over to away from the moral realms and 763 00:32:49,490 --> 00:32:45,769 simply put into a sort of pseudo 764 00:32:52,220 --> 00:32:49,500 psychology state and suddenly you know 765 00:32:53,930 --> 00:32:52,230 suffering is just an illusion you don't 766 00:32:56,210 --> 00:32:53,940 have to worry about and everything is 767 00:32:58,129 --> 00:32:56,220 about self development and everything's 768 00:33:00,320 --> 00:32:58,139 gonna be okay but they take it even more 769 00:33:01,879 --> 00:33:00,330 to the extreme than the Abrahamic 770 00:33:04,700 --> 00:33:01,889 religion so at least wanna address 771 00:33:07,220 --> 00:33:04,710 suffering in the world and that's my big 772 00:33:10,159 --> 00:33:07,230 contention with a so called New Age and 773 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:10,169 I remember I think when I truly left the 774 00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:12,690 New Age movement there was I was reading 775 00:33:17,330 --> 00:33:15,330 a book by Gary Zhukov and I'd really 776 00:33:19,639 --> 00:33:17,340 like the seat of the soul but I kept 777 00:33:21,259 --> 00:33:19,649 rereading it and there was a passage 778 00:33:24,740 --> 00:33:21,269 where he said well if you see somebody 779 00:33:28,129 --> 00:33:24,750 on the street who's poor and hungry and 780 00:33:30,379 --> 00:33:28,139 you know has no clothes just remember he 781 00:33:32,269 --> 00:33:30,389 has a karmic duty so don't worry about 782 00:33:34,279 --> 00:33:32,279 him he's gotta fulfill his karmic duties 783 00:33:36,019 --> 00:33:34,289 and that to me was I mean it goes 784 00:33:38,029 --> 00:33:36,029 against the Gnostics or the Christians 785 00:33:41,779 --> 00:33:38,039 or even Theseus I mean you can't just 786 00:33:45,950 --> 00:33:41,789 relegate people to the powers of fate or 787 00:33:49,190 --> 00:33:45,960 Karma or you know the the chain of being 788 00:33:51,049 --> 00:33:49,200 of the neoplatonist know the first thing 789 00:33:53,450 --> 00:33:51,059 about being a human and finding your 790 00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:53,460 divinity is to help other human beings 791 00:33:59,149 --> 00:33:56,130 it's just basic so it's the the 792 00:34:01,519 --> 00:33:59,159 narcissism and the hypocrisy I guess 793 00:34:02,150 --> 00:34:01,529 that you read so so if you're going to 794 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:02,160 be a 795 00:34:11,510 --> 00:34:08,970 atheistic deepness don't go halfway and 796 00:34:14,810 --> 00:34:11,520 call yourself by a New Ager and and 797 00:34:16,580 --> 00:34:14,820 really be a hedonist and behind all that 798 00:34:18,380 --> 00:34:16,590 you know us being of New Age right I 799 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:18,390 wanted to bring up Shirley MacLaine 800 00:34:22,550 --> 00:34:20,490 because I heard an interview with her 801 00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:22,560 the other day and of course she's one of 802 00:34:27,110 --> 00:34:25,410 the original New Agers and had aa lot to 803 00:34:28,790 --> 00:34:27,120 do with the New Age movement with her 804 00:34:31,130 --> 00:34:28,800 astral projection and all the rest of 805 00:34:32,930 --> 00:34:31,140 that stuff but the quote that she gave 806 00:34:35,659 --> 00:34:32,940 because she's obviously a famous movie 807 00:34:38,140 --> 00:34:35,669 star was that they were pushing her and 808 00:34:40,100 --> 00:34:38,150 she said hey you know what we're all 809 00:34:41,930 --> 00:34:40,110 entertainers at the end of the day 810 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:41,940 that's what we do that's that's what we 811 00:34:46,159 --> 00:34:44,370 do that's our life mission for everyone 812 00:34:47,810 --> 00:34:46,169 is the kind of entertain everyone else 813 00:34:49,790 --> 00:34:47,820 and I thought that was particularly 814 00:34:51,620 --> 00:34:49,800 relevant to your show you put a high 815 00:34:54,169 --> 00:34:51,630 production quality in your show you 816 00:34:57,380 --> 00:34:54,179 obviously care about engaging your 817 00:35:00,620 --> 00:34:57,390 audience in a way that is entertaining 818 00:35:03,910 --> 00:35:00,630 what part does that play for you and 819 00:35:08,300 --> 00:35:03,920 your own personal understanding of 820 00:35:09,590 --> 00:35:08,310 Gnosticism enosis well I think Shirley 821 00:35:12,740 --> 00:35:09,600 MacLaine is actually being very 822 00:35:17,030 --> 00:35:12,750 insightful because the truth is that and 823 00:35:19,220 --> 00:35:17,040 most people forget this but the gnostics 824 00:35:22,250 --> 00:35:19,230 and even the first Christians were 825 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:22,260 artists as much as they were theologians 826 00:35:27,530 --> 00:35:25,650 or mystics after all the idea that you 827 00:35:30,050 --> 00:35:27,540 have to express something that cannot be 828 00:35:31,940 --> 00:35:30,060 expressed knowing the unknown well you 829 00:35:34,850 --> 00:35:31,950 got to put it in a way that people learn 830 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:34,860 through allegory mythology a parable 831 00:35:40,220 --> 00:35:36,810 Jesus was about parables because he knew 832 00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:40,230 nobody would get it and many of these 833 00:35:44,510 --> 00:35:42,450 texts were never meant to be gred 834 00:35:47,330 --> 00:35:44,520 because nobody read but they were 835 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:47,340 actually sang they were used as poetry 836 00:35:52,340 --> 00:35:49,890 even as well as Barnstone he's a great 837 00:35:54,410 --> 00:35:52,350 Shakespearean translator who worked with 838 00:35:57,230 --> 00:35:54,420 Jorge Luis Borges who's also another 839 00:35:59,960 --> 00:35:57,240 great Gnostic he said that the Gnostics 840 00:36:01,640 --> 00:35:59,970 were one of their characteristics is 841 00:36:04,130 --> 00:36:01,650 always being the greatest artist of 842 00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:04,140 their time I mean then you can go to the 843 00:36:08,750 --> 00:36:06,330 Middle Ages with the cards their hymns 844 00:36:11,090 --> 00:36:08,760 were just gorgeous you can look at the 845 00:36:13,580 --> 00:36:11,100 Manicheans of the Middle Ages in before 846 00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:13,590 they they loved drawing and writing 847 00:36:15,980 --> 00:36:15,330 these great poetry 848 00:36:18,620 --> 00:36:15,990 so these 849 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:18,630 world hating existentialist alienated 850 00:36:24,140 --> 00:36:22,170 Gnostics were beautiful as USC set 851 00:36:25,970 --> 00:36:24,150 entertainers first and there's nothing 852 00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:25,980 wrong with it because you're expressing 853 00:36:31,579 --> 00:36:28,530 something that's so amazing best you can 854 00:36:34,190 --> 00:36:31,589 do is sing with saint francis of assisi 855 00:36:36,650 --> 00:36:34,200 most people don't know he used to put on 856 00:36:38,690 --> 00:36:36,660 plays to describe every gospel in the 857 00:36:41,750 --> 00:36:38,700 little town you would just do these 858 00:36:43,700 --> 00:36:41,760 amazing theater productions to do the 859 00:36:45,890 --> 00:36:43,710 gospel of john or whatever i mean it's 860 00:36:47,599 --> 00:36:45,900 part of it you've got the divine spark 861 00:36:49,220 --> 00:36:47,609 lights with you and you know things are 862 00:36:52,310 --> 00:36:49,230 bad so the best thing you do is do a 863 00:36:55,370 --> 00:36:52,320 little sing a song and dance absolutely 864 00:36:57,950 --> 00:36:55,380 and it's it's interesting this artistic 865 00:37:01,400 --> 00:36:57,960 thread that you're going down as a way 866 00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:01,410 of expressing this divine spark again 867 00:37:07,210 --> 00:37:03,690 we'll keep using that term because what 868 00:37:10,339 --> 00:37:07,220 I want to do is juxtaposed that with 869 00:37:13,599 --> 00:37:10,349 science I'm just wondering what are some 870 00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:13,609 of your thoughts in terms of what role 871 00:37:20,870 --> 00:37:18,330 modern science can play in maybe helping 872 00:37:24,010 --> 00:37:20,880 us probe these questions in a new or 873 00:37:26,750 --> 00:37:24,020 different way because we are very much 874 00:37:30,140 --> 00:37:26,760 scientific culture along with being an 875 00:37:35,260 --> 00:37:30,150 atheistic culture how might science play 876 00:37:38,089 --> 00:37:35,270 a role in moving this gnosis forward 877 00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:38,099 well obviously science will play the 878 00:37:42,710 --> 00:37:40,290 role again I mentioned the Gnostics 879 00:37:45,950 --> 00:37:42,720 there's the Valentin Valentinian 880 00:37:49,730 --> 00:37:45,960 Theodotus he said science actually makes 881 00:37:53,540 --> 00:37:49,740 our faith stronger because what's out 882 00:37:58,070 --> 00:37:53,550 there is out there but the note says the 883 00:38:00,530 --> 00:37:58,080 knowledge from Greek also is about you 884 00:38:03,710 --> 00:38:00,540 might say calibrating your brain making 885 00:38:06,140 --> 00:38:03,720 your mind into a stronger antenna so 886 00:38:08,599 --> 00:38:06,150 that you can commune with the other 887 00:38:11,900 --> 00:38:08,609 antennas the higher mind or the news as 888 00:38:15,260 --> 00:38:11,910 the hermetics called it so science 889 00:38:17,089 --> 00:38:15,270 guides us but art inspires us and to me 890 00:38:18,950 --> 00:38:17,099 that is gnosis at the beginning of the 891 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:18,960 know the two pillars of gnosis if you 892 00:38:23,599 --> 00:38:21,450 would yeah that's a great quote well 893 00:38:25,490 --> 00:38:23,609 here's another quote one from the Dalai 894 00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:25,500 Lama that kind of takes it in a 895 00:38:29,420 --> 00:38:27,570 different direction and says I'm 896 00:38:29,809 --> 00:38:29,430 paraphrasing of course but basically the 897 00:38:34,219 --> 00:38:29,819 idea 898 00:38:36,349 --> 00:38:34,229 around for centuries 899 00:38:40,009 --> 00:38:36,359 within the Tibetan Buddhist tradition 900 00:38:42,439 --> 00:38:40,019 are open to verification by science and 901 00:38:45,349 --> 00:38:42,449 if science was to prove that anything is 902 00:38:47,900 --> 00:38:45,359 false then of course Buddhism would have 903 00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:47,910 to change because Buddhism is after 904 00:38:55,569 --> 00:38:51,890 pursuit of the truth so do we need to 905 00:38:58,509 --> 00:38:55,579 put this kind of science first 906 00:39:01,309 --> 00:38:58,519 sensibility out there or is that 907 00:39:04,759 --> 00:39:01,319 consistent with Gnosticism 908 00:39:06,319 --> 00:39:04,769 Oh quick rebuking system because the 909 00:39:08,539 --> 00:39:06,329 Dalai Lama's right because after all in 910 00:39:10,430 --> 00:39:08,549 Buddhism what are you what are you 911 00:39:13,039 --> 00:39:10,440 looking for you're looking for a higher 912 00:39:15,170 --> 00:39:13,049 expanded state of consciousness an 913 00:39:18,890 --> 00:39:15,180 emptiness within you of all the things 914 00:39:21,319 --> 00:39:18,900 that you are so that itself what is real 915 00:39:22,910 --> 00:39:21,329 can flow through and that's that goes 916 00:39:25,099 --> 00:39:22,920 right into what the Gnostics would say 917 00:39:27,140 --> 00:39:25,109 you know get rid of everything that's 918 00:39:30,799 --> 00:39:27,150 false in you and let that divine spark 919 00:39:35,390 --> 00:39:30,809 aka consciousness expand until you reach 920 00:39:37,699 --> 00:39:35,400 that that silence that a serial sublime 921 00:39:40,489 --> 00:39:37,709 state so there's nothing again there's 922 00:39:42,370 --> 00:39:40,499 nothing wrong with that that and science 923 00:39:44,979 --> 00:39:42,380 is it's a great help 924 00:39:47,959 --> 00:39:44,989 Miguel you mentioned a minute ago that 925 00:39:50,479 --> 00:39:47,969 Gnosticism isn't dependent on a certain 926 00:39:52,910 --> 00:39:50,489 history and that that divine spark will 927 00:39:55,670 --> 00:39:52,920 emerge and continue to emerge kind of no 928 00:39:59,359 --> 00:39:55,680 matter what path we fall down and 929 00:40:03,079 --> 00:39:59,369 history let me play devil's advocate if 930 00:40:04,910 --> 00:40:03,089 I could breakers well is a guy who's 931 00:40:06,859 --> 00:40:04,920 come up on your show and he's come up on 932 00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:06,869 my show as well of course he's the 933 00:40:12,049 --> 00:40:09,410 famous futurist who talks about 934 00:40:14,150 --> 00:40:12,059 singularity that is that point sometime 935 00:40:17,059 --> 00:40:14,160 in the future in a future that we can 936 00:40:19,509 --> 00:40:17,069 really perceive advancing a lot faster 937 00:40:23,989 --> 00:40:19,519 than we could before when technology 938 00:40:25,789 --> 00:40:23,999 will equal human intellect as we know it 939 00:40:28,670 --> 00:40:25,799 and when that point is reached and then 940 00:40:30,019 --> 00:40:28,680 exceeded that we will be in a whole new 941 00:40:32,479 --> 00:40:30,029 realm one that we have never anticipated 942 00:40:34,489 --> 00:40:32,489 at any point in history we've never 943 00:40:38,689 --> 00:40:34,499 experienced at any point previous and 944 00:40:43,069 --> 00:40:38,699 that it will redefine who we are what 945 00:40:46,819 --> 00:40:43,079 does Gnosticism have to say about 946 00:40:48,979 --> 00:40:46,829 this view of human consciousness merging 947 00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:48,989 with the machine with the divine spark 948 00:40:56,089 --> 00:40:52,170 if you will merging with the machine any 949 00:41:00,319 --> 00:40:56,099 thoughts on that the problem I have with 950 00:41:03,799 --> 00:41:00,329 the singularity view and the proponents 951 00:41:07,190 --> 00:41:03,809 of them is that I think that it plates 952 00:41:10,370 --> 00:41:07,200 too much on so the apocalyptic mentality 953 00:41:14,329 --> 00:41:10,380 that's out there when it sort of 954 00:41:16,449 --> 00:41:14,339 exploits a very true Gnostic idea that 955 00:41:19,249 --> 00:41:16,459 hey we are dissatisfied with ourselves 956 00:41:20,959 --> 00:41:19,259 all of us are sort of sitting here in 957 00:41:23,269 --> 00:41:20,969 the desert of the average and our 958 00:41:27,620 --> 00:41:23,279 cubicles and our homes and our families 959 00:41:30,709 --> 00:41:27,630 and instead of looking inward to what is 960 00:41:33,019 --> 00:41:30,719 real right now we sort of get caught on 961 00:41:35,569 --> 00:41:33,029 these possibilities these hopes for a 962 00:41:38,630 --> 00:41:35,579 better world I mean the Mayan apocalypse 963 00:41:41,569 --> 00:41:38,640 craze is the Great or the last great 964 00:41:43,219 --> 00:41:41,579 example how Christians are always 965 00:41:46,279 --> 00:41:43,229 looking for the end of the world in fact 966 00:41:48,890 --> 00:41:46,289 there's a book by John Greer Apocalypse 967 00:41:50,959 --> 00:41:48,900 not we need to be studied is that people 968 00:41:53,170 --> 00:41:50,969 want something in the future even if 969 00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:53,180 it's carnage and brimstone from heaven 970 00:41:58,509 --> 00:41:55,410 because it gets them away from the 971 00:42:02,269 --> 00:41:58,519 mundane reality they are and now and 972 00:42:04,999 --> 00:42:02,279 again it is a singularity sort of plays 973 00:42:07,579 --> 00:42:05,009 on it that we will in the future become 974 00:42:09,349 --> 00:42:07,589 gods or United with the machines or have 975 00:42:11,930 --> 00:42:09,359 these the mechanical consciousness 976 00:42:13,789 --> 00:42:11,940 instead of again focusing on where we 977 00:42:15,709 --> 00:42:13,799 are now and what is wrong now with 978 00:42:19,849 --> 00:42:15,719 ourselves again taking that journey 979 00:42:21,859 --> 00:42:19,859 inward great speaking of future Miguel 980 00:42:24,589 --> 00:42:21,869 tell us a little bit about what's going 981 00:42:27,349 --> 00:42:24,599 on with you in the future what's coming 982 00:42:30,099 --> 00:42:27,359 up on en bite Gnostic radio and other 983 00:42:35,900 --> 00:42:30,109 projects you might have in the works 984 00:42:38,390 --> 00:42:35,910 well I'm sort of status quo I just keep 985 00:42:41,539 --> 00:42:38,400 trying to get these great guests he's a 986 00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:41,549 midwife errs of truth that come on for 987 00:42:45,469 --> 00:42:43,650 example I will show on Freemasonry I 988 00:42:48,410 --> 00:42:45,479 have another guest talking about the 989 00:42:50,059 --> 00:42:48,420 different sort of Gnostic churches 990 00:42:52,309 --> 00:42:50,069 because they are out there in the 19th 991 00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:52,319 century we had a great there was sort of 992 00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:54,690 a gnostic revival and these churches 993 00:42:58,940 --> 00:42:56,610 started coming about including 994 00:43:01,040 --> 00:42:58,950 you know Crowley did it all Gnostic mass 995 00:43:05,090 --> 00:43:01,050 and so forth so there's still a lot of 996 00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:05,100 places and guests out there who do who 997 00:43:10,190 --> 00:43:08,130 are part of the the Gnostic taproot so 998 00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:10,200 I'm working on that I've got another 999 00:43:16,070 --> 00:43:12,330 novel that I should be finishing for a 1000 00:43:16,790 --> 00:43:16,080 publisher and do you nonfiction article 1001 00:43:19,790 --> 00:43:16,800 that I'm writing for different 1002 00:43:21,380 --> 00:43:19,800 publications so I'm just again I am in 1003 00:43:22,940 --> 00:43:21,390 my own little corner of the universe 1004 00:43:25,820 --> 00:43:22,950 like you are and we're over here just 1005 00:43:27,470 --> 00:43:25,830 trying to open some more doors so people 1006 00:43:29,180 --> 00:43:27,480 can make their own choices and go on 1007 00:43:31,610 --> 00:43:29,190 their own adventure to find the divine 1008 00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:31,620 spark the true selves or higher selves 1009 00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:34,050 and we'll see what happens I don't I 1010 00:43:39,770 --> 00:43:36,090 don't expect to change the world I don't 1011 00:43:41,780 --> 00:43:39,780 think the Gnostics did but we can you 1012 00:43:44,690 --> 00:43:41,790 know help one life spark at a time 1013 00:43:47,330 --> 00:43:44,700 because a Kabbalist would say well said 1014 00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:47,340 and let's hope that a few more folks can 1015 00:43:52,340 --> 00:43:49,890 find their way over to your little 1016 00:43:54,260 --> 00:43:52,350 corner of the universe by virtue of the 1017 00:43:57,650 --> 00:43:54,270 show and I certainly hope that people do 1018 00:44:00,200 --> 00:43:57,660 check out a on bite Gnostic radio you're 1019 00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:00,210 in for a great ride if you do not only 1020 00:44:06,860 --> 00:44:02,970 great content but great guests as well 1021 00:44:09,170 --> 00:44:06,870 I've become a regular listener and can't 1022 00:44:11,390 --> 00:44:09,180 wait for the next episode so it's been 1023 00:44:14,300 --> 00:44:11,400 great having you on Miguel thanks again 1024 00:44:16,940 --> 00:44:14,310 for joining me today on skeptic oh thank 1025 00:44:18,830 --> 00:44:16,950 you Alex it was great being here thanks 1026 00:44:20,750 --> 00:44:18,840 again to miguel connor for joining me 1027 00:44:22,490 --> 00:44:20,760 today on skeptic Oh a couple of 1028 00:44:24,890 --> 00:44:22,500 questions on my tee up from this 1029 00:44:27,290 --> 00:44:24,900 interview first let's jump right in to 1030 00:44:30,050 --> 00:44:27,300 first century Gnosticism in first 1031 00:44:32,870 --> 00:44:30,060 century Christianity and tackle this one 1032 00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:32,880 what are the implications of the Gnostic 1033 00:44:38,270 --> 00:44:36,330 Gospels for modern day Christianity now 1034 00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:38,280 I know most of you aren't into religion 1035 00:44:43,940 --> 00:44:41,010 but purely from a historical perspective 1036 00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:43,950 I think it's interesting to look back at 1037 00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:45,930 this history that is now pretty 1038 00:44:50,870 --> 00:44:48,090 well-established that is that there were 1039 00:44:54,170 --> 00:44:50,880 all these different sects centered 1040 00:44:56,870 --> 00:44:54,180 around this historical figure of Jesus 1041 00:44:58,520 --> 00:44:56,880 or smait be several historical figures 1042 00:45:00,230 --> 00:44:58,530 that were called Jesus however you want 1043 00:45:02,630 --> 00:45:00,240 to slice or dice that but it's 1044 00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:02,640 interesting that we now know there were 1045 00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:04,770 all these different traditions in the 1046 00:45:08,690 --> 00:45:06,810 first century that were practicing 1047 00:45:10,430 --> 00:45:08,700 different rites different rituals had 1048 00:45:12,940 --> 00:45:10,440 very different ideas of 1049 00:45:16,339 --> 00:45:12,950 what all that meant and they were all 1050 00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:16,349 coexisting at this time and yet it gets 1051 00:45:22,579 --> 00:45:19,770 rolled into this very homogenized kind 1052 00:45:25,309 --> 00:45:22,589 of Christianity that we have today so 1053 00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:25,319 from a historical perspective I think 1054 00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:27,450 that's fascinating and I certainly think 1055 00:45:33,500 --> 00:45:30,810 that even if you're an atheist and think 1056 00:45:35,870 --> 00:45:33,510 that all religion is total crap you have 1057 00:45:38,990 --> 00:45:35,880 to acknowledge the enormous influence 1058 00:45:42,170 --> 00:45:39,000 that this Christian tradition has had on 1059 00:45:44,690 --> 00:45:42,180 our culture on our world so I think it's 1060 00:45:47,980 --> 00:45:44,700 worth a look back and the second 1061 00:45:52,010 --> 00:45:47,990 question has to do with this Gnostic 1062 00:45:53,900 --> 00:45:52,020 sensibility of alienation and I think 1063 00:45:56,599 --> 00:45:53,910 that's one thing that really sparks my 1064 00:45:59,750 --> 00:45:56,609 interest in Gnosticism because there's 1065 00:46:02,960 --> 00:45:59,760 something that rings true to that for me 1066 00:46:06,589 --> 00:46:02,970 and that is this idea that this world is 1067 00:46:09,620 --> 00:46:06,599 not really what it's about and we are 1068 00:46:13,809 --> 00:46:09,630 somehow alienated in some way that we 1069 00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:13,819 can't fully put our finger on from this 1070 00:46:18,740 --> 00:46:16,650 material world and I think in this show 1071 00:46:21,620 --> 00:46:18,750 as we've explored the limits of 1072 00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:21,630 materialism both scientifically and 1073 00:46:27,650 --> 00:46:24,810 culturally it does force one to kind of 1074 00:46:30,109 --> 00:46:27,660 step back and say gee if I'm not part of 1075 00:46:33,770 --> 00:46:30,119 that materialism and that materialistic 1076 00:46:36,589 --> 00:46:33,780 worldview then what am i and am I really 1077 00:46:40,309 --> 00:46:36,599 on the outside looking in of all this 1078 00:46:42,829 --> 00:46:40,319 are we meant to feel alienated from this 1079 00:46:45,650 --> 00:46:42,839 world so those are a couple of questions 1080 00:46:47,809 --> 00:46:45,660 to mull over and maybe share with me or 1081 00:46:49,910 --> 00:46:47,819 other listeners through the comment 1082 00:46:53,150 --> 00:46:49,920 section of The Skeptical website or on 1083 00:46:57,829 --> 00:46:53,160 the forum you can find both at skeptic 1084 00:46:59,420 --> 00:46:57,839 Oh calm that's sk EPT Iko calm you'll 1085 00:47:02,059 --> 00:46:59,430 also find while you're there a link to 1086 00:47:04,730 --> 00:47:02,069 our more than 200 previous shows and an 1087 00:47:06,500 --> 00:47:04,740 email on a facebook link to me all sorts 1088 00:47:09,290 --> 00:47:06,510 of other good stuff well I have a number 1089 00:47:11,450 --> 00:47:09,300 of interesting shows coming up a couple 1090 00:47:13,309 --> 00:47:11,460 of them on the UFO topic which I've 1091 00:47:16,609 --> 00:47:13,319 really wanted to get into more and more 1092 00:47:18,740 --> 00:47:16,619 but I seem to be limited by these other 1093 00:47:21,380 --> 00:47:18,750 side Adventures that I can't resist 1094 00:47:23,610 --> 00:47:21,390 going down but I do want to return to 1095 00:47:25,940 --> 00:47:23,620 that topic because I think understand 1096 00:47:28,650 --> 00:47:25,950 ending the reality of that is 1097 00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:28,660 fundamental to all these other questions 1098 00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:31,930 that were asking so just a warning that 1099 00:47:37,950 --> 00:47:33,850 you're reliable to get a good dose of 1100 00:47:39,420 --> 00:47:37,960 that in the upcoming episodes so that's 1101 00:47:41,340 --> 00:47:39,430 what's coming up I hope you'll stay with 1102 00:47:43,230 --> 00:47:41,350 me for all of that and I hope you'll 1103 00:47:45,510 --> 00:47:43,240 tell your friends about skeptic oh and 1104 00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:45,520 continue to blog and write about us like 1105 00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:48,130 many of you do it's always nice to hear 1106 00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:49,930 from people who are discovering the show 1107 00:47:55,170 --> 00:47:52,690 for the first time well that's it for